Meet Cary Duffy in our top salespeople interview series.
In these interviews, Clive Miller seeks the unique methods, knowledge, habits, and practices of top salespeople.
Watch this interview with Cary Duffy, explaining what he has learned about selling and how to achieve exceptional sales results.
Cary started selling at 17 and hated it!
Since 2006 he has been solving business problems and leading enterprise sales for Exponential-e.
In addition to his full-time sales role, Cary supports youth employment and social change through Youth Employment UK and the Positive Transformation Initiative.
Cary's mantra: "Look at every interaction as an opportunity to learn from the people you meet. You will be amazed at how quickly you grow, how much better you get."
Transcript of the Interview with Cary Duffy
Clive:
Welcome, everybody.
This is a project that I've started recently to interview top-performing salespeople so that we can present for you to hear for yourselves the techniques and practices and skills that top performers use in order to achieve consistent results.
I'd like to ask Cary to just briefly summarize his career to date and some of the high points before we get into the questions. Cary could you share for the audience.
Cary:
Thanks, Clive. Hi everyone, yes I am Cary Duffy. I've worked in sales since I left school at 17 and I originally worked in paper and print in the suburbs of north London. From the late 90s, I moved into technology.
I've worked in technology sales for very many years now. I think it's all well over 25 years of experience and now I work for a UK IT services provider and I've worked for them for 15 years.
I work in the enterprise team so my core focus is selling into the enterprise organizations pretty much UK centric and those over £250 million, selling a range of different services to those types of organizations.
I'm delighted to see if I can help with anything today and maybe help anyone who's looking at developing themselves in this area.
Clive:
Thanks, Cary that's perfect. So let's get straight into the questions. Perhaps you could tell our viewers and me something about the habits and practices that you consider to have the most impact on your success.
Cary:
OK, good question. I think I read somewhere recently that discipline equals freedom and I'm a strong believer in that in terms of the discipline that's required in quite an emotionally turbulent role that we've got.
Salespeople need to have the discipline to do the right things at the right time and that really starts with how one conducts oneself in terms of making sure that we're looking after ourselves to be in the best shape ready to to be successful in the job from a mental and physical perspective as well.
Generally, I think sales has got a lot to do with planning, understanding the right activities and measuring success in order to determine what brings the best outcome.
Speaking to other people who've been very successful, they have a plan which they work to and the strategy that they work to which has core fundamentals in terms of, to give an example, it might be the importance that they place on prospecting whatever stage of the career they're at. They're always looking to build their pipeline.
The pipe is life right so it's the most important thing to keep the focus on, still trying to create that top-of-funnel pipeline and trying to work and leverage your internal network of people within your organization in order to keep creating that line of opportunities you might be able to work on, so I think if you underline what you're doing with just core principles of what you do as a salesperson with that perhaps being the most important one, that of constantly looking for that next opportunity where you can create value for people inside or outside of your network.
I would say that people who've got longevity in sales still continue to hold that principle very close to the core of what they do. Does that make sense?
Absolutely that makes a lot of sense and I love that sound bite, the pipe is life.
Yes, it really is isn't it because ultimately you know there are winners and losers in every single engagement and there's no way that you can guarantee whether you're in you're never in full control of a customer's buy-in process or a customer's decision because it's ultimately up to them.
It's free will and all that so you need to have a varied kind of diversified type of, like yourself, you sell a service or if you sell a product it's quite different perhaps but you just need to have a lot of different long-term, large, small those different ones that you know will kind of flow through their old sales cycles or buying cycles as we should really say, at different rates so yeah the pipes everything, that's what I look at.
If you've not built a pipeline recently you're already stagnating, you're withering on the vine or one is so it's always important that you keep trying to refresh that top of the pipeline.
What sort of pipeline ratio do you try to maintain?
A good question. Three times is kind of like what you would say so you'd like to have three times your annual quota your number so if I've got a one million pound quota I'm rolling.
Some people I've spoken to prefer five. It really depends on where you are in your sales career and what you're selling because obviously, you know you could be in some sort of sweet spot where you have the ability to sell very large solutions which ultimately could crush your quota within two or three orders, so it's very difficult to be very scientific about that.
I'd love to say five. Five would be wonderful wouldn't it but then the paradox of that, it would be very difficult to service five times your pipeline moving these different kinds of deals through the stages when they come in and come out unless you've got a team of people working for you, which would be great and they were just managing your opportunities.
It's very difficult of course to determine which opportunities are going to give you the best chance of a successful outcome, so quite often you have to overcompensate and spin more plates in order to give yourself the best chance of it being one in four or whatever it might be.
You must have a way of deciding, filtering out, so how do you decide if something's an opportunity? A pipeline of three to one would suggest that you're going to convert one in every three on average.
It's a really great question. I think the proliferation now of sales insights that are available to just anyone who's got the internet it's just incredible.
From the amount of sales books now which talk about the modern seller and the modern buyer which are available and on Audible, the kind of courses that you can attend, the videos that you can watch.
YouTube is stacked full of very very good thought leaders and sales helping people through the development process of their own careers etcetera etcetera.
I think now that there are a lot of tools and methodologies in terms of qualification processes that you can take on and ultimately different ones work for different people. There are guides like SCOTSMAN and BANT and many others that you can use.
When you do a lot of reading and research, what you tend to do or what I tend to do anyway is to take a little bit of all of these qualification methods and they become kind of my own way that I look at an opportunity. The more that I've done this over the years, the more it's become intangible. It's kind of like a gut feeling that I think there is something.
There are a key few key drivers. In terms of discovery, I think you can find out a lot about an opportunity.
How well your discovery goes in any engagement with a new prospective client or someone you know who doesn't even, is not even approaching a bottom window but someone you might, a business lady you might have the opportunity to speak with. I think in discovery you can really uncover whether there is something here that you can pursue or whether there's a demonstrable chance that you can provide a great outcome.
Can you add value to this person and their organization?
Can I see something there that's tangible?
An interesting thing you say as you move down into the opportunities and you've got all your opportunities logged, when you look at those opportunities really it's a case of understanding from the customer whether there is a perceived pain or a goal. If you're moving away from pain or you're moving towards a goal for which the rewards are understood and they've been quantified then I think those two things you can look to match towards.
I think most people do move away from pain. I think that's probably the greatest compulsion for any major purchase, certainly in technology.
Often there are organizations who need to catch up, who need to get somewhere. Perhaps they've got their own agenda and they're moving towards pleasure or a desired future state so really you've got two ends of it you've got pain and you've got a future state of positivity, which is very different to their current environment.
When you start to understand if people have a business case, is there a business case that's already been approved by the board?
Has there been some sort of analysis on what the cost of inaction might be?
What would happen if the customer were still in their current position a quarter later?
There is a myriad of questions that you can ask to actually dig under the 'what's up'. You have to be a detective in sales right.
What's written and stated and then what the real reality is of the situation that you're facing?
There are many times over the years Clive I've gone into a situation and believed what I've seen. There's an RFP for a kind of technology outsource, gone six months through, burnt many cycles, and then realized that the biggest obstacle in this is not another vendor winning or not another service provider but it's just a failure to launch, it's no decision.
The older I've got the more I've been able to get an idea of whether these people have the appetite willingness and desire to really make those fundamental changes, which means it's worth my while trying to help them for the next six or 12 months, do you know what I mean?
Yes, absolutely. Out of any 10 sales, four or five of them are never going to happen. They don't buy anything.
I think it's great to know. In order to do that you only really get there by experience.
I think learning from people with experience who take, not necessarily a negative view. I'm always looking for the no's rather than the yes's. I think that's a good way of looking at it right, you find your no's you can clear that time out there's nothing greater than getting time back.
When you realise that's not really a worthwhile use of time to pursue. It's the second-best feeling to a win because you know you're not going to waste your time on something that's not going to happen.
A 'no' is as good as a yes!
Ah brilliant just keep looking for the no's, you'll be fine really if you look at it that way.
Yes, absolutely.
Are there things that you do every day?
Yes, there are, a plan. And a little bit the night before, planning and constantly changing the way that you plan your day and the way that you best organize your key priorities for the day.
I mean I've got got a jotter, I've used online stuff, I've used notes on my phone, but the thing I try to do every day is I write a list and maybe it's a list I've got from yesterday and at the top of that list I've written 'is this essential?' and that's the kind of thing I'm trying to remind myself whenever I go through any of these tasks.
Is this task that I'm doing now essential?
From a perspective of helping a customer, it's non-negotiable but is it absolutely fundamental to me reaching the objectives which I've got, which it ultimately rolls up to meeting my quota and making sure that I perform to the target I've been set.
So I try to look at that list every day and what I'll try to do is eat the frog first. I'm sure you're familiar with that term. Do the ugliest horrible task as the first thing you look at and that saves a lot on procrastination.
I can be as guilty as the next person is in terms of putting off some of those really challenging annoying non-profit making kind of things that you've got to do but fundamentally you need to get those done so once you've got those kinds of large stones in, you can start to fit all of the other smaller stuff around it and really prioritise the three main tasks in a day.
I've read a lot of stuff and people say that if you've got more than three main tasks in your day then you're doing something wrong.
I know everyone works in different sales environments and sells different kinds of products and services but really once you get to a level of focus on one particular, they call it mono-tasking right, once you do, have you heard of the Pomodoro technique where you kind of set an alarm first?
I have, yes.
You know that right so just do that just drill down, drill down, drill down, and mono task. Ignore all of the dopamine potential hits of like your Teams coming up or your phone going off or an email.
If you could!
That's the ideal scenario, that you would just be able to focus on one task at a time, giving it your full attention and then breaking after 20 minutes taking a break, resting your brain, and going back into it.
So I think prioritization of the task and a realization of this is essential because once you start working to other people's agendas and reacting to stuff as it comes in and hits your inbox or your Teams or your other messaging or your Slack Messenger then you've lost control over that and ultimately it's about being good at saying 'no' to a lot of stuff, which I find really hard, but saying no is really great in terms of trying to make sure that you do what's really important for you.
Yes, it's what you don't do that makes the difference. It's what you choose not to do that makes the difference.
100 percent.
What mistakes have you learned to avoid in your sales career?
I think one that might be slightly different to maybe what you're expecting. I think I have invested everything emotionally and personally into the outcome of stuff that's not not really in my control.
So what I think I've done many times, in many large opportunities that I've worked on, I've invested all my self-esteem in the outcome of something that I can never really have full control over.
And that's happened many times over my career and also the ones that you've won as well but the point is, I win this thing and I'm successful then I'm good and I'm amazing, I'm a good person and if I don't win this then oh my god I'm in the pits, I'm terrible, I'm the scum of the earth.
So where I've done that many times is I think I've invested too much in the outcomes of stuff that I haven't got the control over and it's affected me really badly you know, outside of work in my family life, so I try not to, I try to be dispassionate now about the outcomes whilst always trying to be professional and do everything I can do where I feel I can help the customer, do everything I can to try and put the best case forward but accept the fact that it's not within my control in the end and be able to move on so win with you know win with style and lose with style in terms of a balance on both sides right, you're not you're not amazing just because you won because you probably had 15 people helping you in the same way you're also not terrible if you lose something if you can learn from your mistakes, if that makes sense.
Yes, absolutely, there is always learning in failure. Tom Peters wasn't it who said: "fail forward faster".
Yes, the worst part is when you just don't really understand the tangible reasons for that outcome and sometimes you can understand them but they might not compute because you're seeing it, and so you're not necessarily doing the right thing which is putting yourself in your buyer's shoes.
You can only see the outcome and the decision based on your own view point, but the perspective from the other side of the table is through six different people, all weighing up their options.
I do this kind of thing all the time. They may only do it two at once every two or three years, so it's very difficult to stay grounded and keep some distance from what you're doing, whilst always making sure that you're doing absolutely everything you can in your power to give yourself the best chance of winning.
When you do learn, that's a great thing, and you can always learn. You can always pass that on.
I've been very successful in my career and people come and ask me about some of the problems that I had and I say, "I've lost every deal possible, I've lost it every way, I've lost it by making mistakes in presentations, making mistakes in commercials, I've made it every single way and I make fewer mistakes now.
I still make mistakes now, plenty of them but I make fewer mistakes. There are always ways to learn. That's why sometimes you get to sales when you have had many years of experience because you've lived through all those experiences which have shaped you to be what you are in the moment when you're putting forward the case that you're the best person to work with.
Yes, as you said, it's all about learning from your failures. There's always something to be gained even for the things that don't work out, I think.
I agree, yes.
Tell me about the knowledge that you have that supports your success in your current role and how you came by it?
Can you repeat that question just one more time for me, please?
Yes, it's about your knowledge. I was writing about this on LinkedIn comparing doctors for salespeople. This was a post two days ago about the admirable qualities of doctors that salespeople should copy, and one thing that's obvious is their huge knowledge right, that they spend a decade gaining, and in sales, I think that's very important too although we usually don't get a decade to learn it. So the question is about the knowledge you have that sustains you in your current role, in the job that you're in, and how did you come by it?
Really good question. I think it comes from one of my mentors who put me on a path of personal development about five or six years ago. I started reading traditional kinds of texts around things that would help, Richest Man in Babylon etcetera, etcetera.
Some of the books that you read, take you on that path. I've gone right the way through that process and I am still doing it now. I read a book a month, non-fiction and I try to read fiction as well. Normally the non-fiction book is something to do with either personal development or sales. They are audiobooks from Audible. You use headphones. There is plenty of time to be walking around with that, if you can, whether it be on your commute or walking anywhere or around the house as my wife likes to.
What's the best book you've read this year or listened to this year?
It's a really good question. I am reading, well sales-wise, there was one called Inked by Jeb Blount who's an American. One about leading, that's really good as well. I'd say that one was really impressive. Outside of that, I've read some really interesting pieces.
I'm reading one called Sales Secrets of the Worlds Top Salespeople by Brandon Bornancin. It's 15 hours of listening. It's a bit of a grind but basically, he interviews a lot of salespeople in much the same way as you do and they tell him what the secrets are. You can pick up a little bit from that.
What else am I reading, I'm also reading The Unknown Methods of Critical Thinking which is by Dale Owen which is really good as well. That one kind of blends some development into just decision-making in sales as well.
Dale Owen, brilliant OK.
And then the other one which I've been meaning to read for ages was Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl which is not sales. He's a psychiatrist who is a concentration camp survivor which again is just incredible, and that talks about psychology as well as his experiences.
Reading stuff like that does give you some context of when you think you know how lucky we are to not be in those situations but how lucky we are in being in a job like sales where you've got the ability to improve your life. Stuff like that really helps give balance, if that makes sense. I've got a reading list about 40 I could share.
Me too. I read the Victory Frankl book years, decades and decades ago, maybe 40 years ago. For me, how do you find the will to carry on when you're in such a, you know if you if you read about the conditions that they had to experience and that they had to what they had to deal with each day, the question in my mind is how do you survive that and I think that's what the book's about.
Yeah 100 percent. I mean he's applied that, Logotherapy is his own method of psychoanalysis. The interesting thing I found about that book, he, being a doctor, not a medical doctor but in the end he had to do a lot of that work. He ended up moving around quite a lot and whereas before he would try and avoid the fate, he would avoid that work, in the end he left all of it open to fate and so he stopped trying to be in control. Fate does she pleases right, you just have to kind of throw it out there to the universe and he was lucky enough that he just kind of got through it and survived whereas many other people didn't. When they tried to take control and tried to avoid that or do this, he just accepted it for what it was. I am where I am and I just need to make the best of what I can do, right.
The other thing that I've got quite into which you might be interested in is Stoic philosophy, I don't know if you've heard of the Stoics . .
Yes, the Stoics.
Marcus Aralias, the last famous Stoic philosopher from antiquity, wrote of memento mori, which is not supposed to be in any way morbid. It's basically meditating on death, and that's what allows you to live a good life, rather than being fixated by death. More like asking, "what can I do today?" The sands of time are moving. You've got to just see what you can do.
I think having that type of attitude in sales is not a bad thing as well. Not being focused on the outcomes, just seeing if you can help people. Obviously, you have to do what you can do but in the way of having that attitude of like just trying to do the best that you can do and putting the best into it, even the ones that you can't help.
Trying to help people who are not within your sphere of influence or control and your network, one great thing that we haven't really touched on, cultivating a personal network is so important. It's what brought us together as well right, so yes, I could ramble on all day about this stuff, sorry.
No worries, it's really valuable, I think it's very very valuable anyway. So the question is, what about your technical knowledge? That was what I was trying to get at, so what is the knowledge you have about IT or technology or software that you use in order to diagnose and propose solutions?
Very good question. Now really highly valued salespeople are those who can do pretty much everything, have business acumen and the right experience.
They may be able to work technically with certain subject matter experts but have a grasp the technology field that they're operating in and the technology that their clients use. That's number one.
To gain that then you need to be doing studying and you need to be keeping up to date and trying with accreditations, etcetera. I think that's really key.
I think where it comes into being a salesperson as well, you need to have the ability to run legal contracts as well. You need to be able to leverage business relationships, and stakeholders, and need to talk business language in order to be fully rounded.
Ultimately the procurement of technology is just a transaction. What's the best fit of technology. It's really matching a technology to the objectives of an organization and what they want to achieve, when they want to deliver a return on investment on this as well.
The the technical aspect is still very important. I'm mildly technical and I have a grasp of those concepts and I understand cloud and I understand cyber and I understand networks and all those different parts.
Where I think a salesperson's required these days is having feet in both camps, the technical and the knowledge and the understanding of how that technology could positively impact an organization or an individual you're talking to and the business acumen to be able to bridge the gap between the two.
It's all about that translation of the middle part where you're pulling the technology and the deliverables out of it and matching them to a business and helping someone visualize the business case.
Sometimes what I like to try and do is to see the afters. This is where we are now and what we are trying to create with technology as the major underpinning factor but this is what your business is going to look like six months after we've worked together. That's a completely different, and that's a really interesting way of qualification because if it's a very similar environment to what you're currently looking at, the gap's not big enough and therefore that doesn't make it a very compelling thing for an organization to have to go through, invest all their time and money in when the actual outcome is not very different.
Where there's a really big gap between current mode and potential future state, look at all the benefits this is going to deliver your organization, then ultimately it justifies the investment whatever the investment is.
Ideally if that's what you want to get to, that's what it's going to cost, and hopefully by being that Sherpa in the middle that can help that person navigate through the technology and then build the business case and work with them, that's where you get the best outcomes for all concerned.
so technical knowledge is very important but it's definitely not as important as the business acumen that someone needs.
There's a book title in that, Sherpa Selling
Sherpa Selling, that's it Sherpa Selling 101. I think that's just such a great analogy. I wish I could say I came up with it myself. I didn't but I certainly think that you need to understand where you are in terms of the higher ground and the middle ground, to help your organization, help your business.
Sometimes the challenge Clive is just people's expectations. People who've had a less than ideal experience or an association with salespeople. Aa good salesperson is someone who wants to help people, help navigate through the very difficult waters of making the right decision for their business, whether it be me with or anyone else.
So when people think there's some barrier up there, then sometimes people are not willing to even drop their guards in order to create some real trust in a relationship, and you can only be genuine and the thing is in this kind of scenario you just try and fall back on your reputation. You've helped people before, you can say 'here's some of the people that I've worked with and this is what they said about what I've done for them, so you'd hope that that was some advantage anyway.
Yes, absolutely. So what do you see as the things that you are strong at and the things that you wish you were better at?
Good question, I think I'm pretty strong in the, with a customer, just human interactions the most interesting part of everyone's life right, certainly the most interesting part of sales.
I think what I've managed to develop over the years is no distance really between me as I am with my friends and my family, to me as I am with my customers and potential clients as well, so there's no pretence there, so I can just be myself quite freely and talk and converse in a way that's not manufactured. I hope it doesn't feel manufactured in any way and it's just genuine and from the heart so I think that's probably good. I just think that that kind of comes through.
I want to help people if I can and I think that's what I'm good at. Also it helps with the interactions in some negotiations, presentations, and stakeholder building going across the organization, the COO or dealing with the IT infrastructure manager I can do both. That's probably where I'm pretty good, I'd say.
Obviously that's the easy bit. The hard bit, god so much. I wish I was better at so much. There's nothing really that couldn't do with a little bit of refinement or a lot of refinement.
I think some of my creative writing is pretty good but it takes me a long time to have to write a lot of bits. I have to write a lot of executive summaries. That seems to take me a lot longer than I'd like. They seem to be okay. I think I have a tendency to over complicate, certainly in scenarios where it's slightly, out of my comfort zone, so I may try and overcompensate.
These are things that certainly were afflictions earlier, and I think that, on a commercials perspective I work with some people who are just amazing at all of it. Some people I can name who are just, maybe not as good at the people stuff as I am, but in terms of putting together really complex business models, negotiating very complex terms, being so well-rounded in all those other disciplines, that I was just in awe of them right.
They are still friends of mine today, so I can take a little bit from everyone and I can just see where people are a lot stronger than me and everyone, junior to me, senior to me, there's there's something in everyone that you can learn from right, and improve. If I was here to say what I could be better on, we'd be here for another two hours.
What do you consider to be the character traits and qualities that are important factors in success?
Good question again. I think a dedication to self-development. I think is key. I think the world's a big classroom and I think you you can learn from every scenario and everyone that you speak with.
So if you're curious enough to want to learn and pursue excellence in what you do then I think that someone who has that mindset is often the most successful.
People who don't rest on their laurels and have that emotional resilience that's required in sales to be able to get up the next day, get out of bed the 100th day in a row, at 6 00 a.m. Start work again and to keep going there so you certainly need that mental fortitude. And commitment to self-development I would say are the ones that are really important.
And I think anyone who's open to to to criticism, and open to constructive criticism of what they do. Where I find it's very difficult, you don't really find a lot of sales people who are willing to do internal workshops and role plays with their peers because we're all so worried about how that might affect our egos. We're quite egocentric, salespeople, and so I think that if you can leave that at the door and be completely open to just accept you're going to make mistakes and no one's perfect.
I do believe there is a culture within sales of looking down on someone who makes a mistake. Not necessarily in my organization but from what I see across the industries over many years. I think if that can be eradicated people will get a lot more success and be able to flourish in what they do. That answer your question?
Absolutely it does, yes and like you, I could talk about it for hours too, but this is all to get your thoughts and feelings out so I'm going to resist the temptation. That did answer the question very well indeed.
If you had to distil all this into one piece of advice for a newcomer, what would it be?
I have a really simple answer to that. If anyone's starting off in sales and asks me what advice I can offer to help them, I'd ask them what they're reading. It's really as simple as that. What are you reading?
All right, well you need to read this, then you need to read that. Knowledge is is absolutely key in the build out of one's own kind of personality and, you know, when I speak to people who are in their early 20s, early in their career, I thought it was such high stakes at that age and it really wasn't, and I really didn't have any perspective or any guide to be able to put things into perspective.
The more that you read and understand psychology, psychology of sales, psychology in itself, self-actualization, personal development, then once you gain that, you can ride the rocky road of sales and put things into perspective.
I'd love to think if I was starting in sales now, it'd be very different than when I started when I was 17 and it was like, there's a phone book, there's a telephone, go and do it!
I hated it. I hated it absolutely. I hated everything.
Now there's so much available to someone who really wants to make this a career. There's a lot of theory but if you breathe it into your world. So if anyone said to me, "what advice can you give me", I'd ask,what are you reading, and my advice would be to suggest the next book for them to pick up.
That's excellent. That is absolutely extraordinarily valuable advice and I'd just like to underline it with a quote which is from Isaac Newton. He was a very famous scientists. Hopefully, everybody's heard of him, and it was, "If I've seen further than other men it is because I stand on the shoulders of giants."
Absolutely. There's an incredible amount of resource out there for people in sales. In addition to what they are reading, I's suggest they get themselves a mentor, get someone who actually cares about their development. I'm always very happy, I mentor quite a few people and I'm very happy to do it. And who knows what might come of it. You and I could probably talk for ages on these points.
Most definitely, yes but we've used the 45 minutes so I think we probably better draw this to a close. This has been wonderful and I'm sure it's going to get a lot of views and I will of course share it with you before I publish it. Thanks for coming on this and being interviewed, Cary. I look forward to talking to you again in the future.
Thanks Clive, I really enjoyed it. Thanks a lot to you too.
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